How far could a 60 something Phil Jackson get this exact same Lakers team?
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Dr. Laker
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:51 pm    Post subject:

miggz23 wrote:
Anyone still running triangle offense today?

Wonder how effective it would be in today’s game. I don’t think it will generate enough points.


1971-72 Lakers ran a version of the Triangle and averaged 121.0 PPG . . . without the 3-pt. shot . . .

The Warriors run about 50% Triangle (Kerr is a Phil Jackson guy).

The Spurs run Triangle sets for Wemby.

It's been around for 80 years and teams at every level use at least some of its principles.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:09 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
I have serious doubts about implementing the triangle in 2024

I've never understood why the triangle offense wouldn't be effective in today's NBA.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:20 pm    Post subject:

No Tex Winter. That’s a big hurdle to overcome.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:48 pm    Post subject:

69 wins

PJ has always used the triangle offense and his teams have always been good defensive teams. Great recipe for success for sure. He doesn't play rookies so AR wouldn't have gotten that many minutes and become what he is today.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:25 pm    Post subject:

Can we ask the opposite question..

How would Ham do with the Kobe championship teams?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:40 pm    Post subject:

i heard his protégé (Rambis) is eagerly awaits for his next HC gig. do you want him instead? sorry i just puked on my keyboard.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:01 am    Post subject:

Ty Lue runs set out of the Triangle for the Clippers.

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“We have put in two or three sets of the triangle and let Kawhi play in those spaces where Kobe and Jordan played in those spots as well,” said Lue. "He loves those two players and he really respects and looks up to those guys. So, we just try to put him in position. I was able to play with both those guys and I also played in the triangle, so just trying to teach him that as well."
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:11 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
ocho wrote:
I have serious doubts about implementing the triangle in 2024

I've never understood why the triangle offense wouldn't be effective in today's NBA.

It depends on the players. Most players wouldn't buy in. The league has become very easy and obvious with regards to offense. It's become about that quick guard play and 3 point shooting.

If you run the Triangle, you're taking the ball out of that guards hands and now asking a team to play in sync together. It's very high IQ, very detail oriented. You would need a leader who was Lebron level in his prime to buy in and enforce the rest to buy in. Lebron/AD would be great in the Triangle, but the other 3 players need to be able to shoot 3 pointers and pass. In today's league you would need to space the post spot a bit different. If AD is that guy setting up in the post (or Lebron) it needs to be a lot higher, closer to the mid to high post. The sideline Triangle can not be run as deep. This would allow better spacing.

No one but Phil could run it though, because of the buy in factor. No one buys in to a regular coach selling this concept. You also need deeply competitive high IQ player as your star. Your star can't be Trae Young. I think Lebron would have thrived in it as would have AD.

Another team that I think would do well running the Triangle are the Suns. They have Durant, Beal, Booker, Grayson. Teams like that, if you had a coach like Phil, they'd probably buy in and be able to run it. This Laker team with AD/Lebron/DLO/Reaves/Rui could also easily run it, again IF they bought in. The key is the buy in, be different factor. The very special thing about Kobe, as much as he disliked the Triangle at first, Kobe was very good at knowing details and plays and getting teammates to follow. By Phil's second run, Kobe was better than anyone at running it.

I do not enjoy today's NBA as much as 15 years ago. Even 10 years ago was better. Today's league is less watchable for me because it's just the same ole same ole from every team. What made 10-15 years ago cool, you had the D'Antoni and other offenses in the league, you had the Lebron show in Miami, but you also had teams running stuff we saw with Kobe/Phil/Pau in LA, and Boston with KG/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Thibs. You had a pretty cool blend of different styles of play. Now pretty much everyone plays the exact same way. It's boring.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:20 am    Post subject:

10-15 years ago:

Miami Big 3 with Bron/Wade/Bosh.
Boston's KG/Pierce/Rondo/Allen team with Thibs as defensive coach.
Dirk's Dallas team.
Kobe/Pau Lakers.
D'Antoni offense running wild around some of the league's teams.
Young Warriors team developing.
Spurs Tim Duncan/Manu/Kawhi/Parker Pop offense
Budenholzer in Atlanta.

You see there was a lot of different styles of play. So much fun to watch all the match ups and styles. I enjoyed match ups like vs Dallas where you would face a player like Dirk. Or Boston with KG and those aholes. Miami's big 3. All played different than this current stuff. Of course Kobe/Pau.

Now? This is grade A bull (bleep) vs what we once had, IMO. Basketball is so much less enjoyable. Add the politics, it's even worse.
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ocho
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
slavavov wrote:
ocho wrote:
I have serious doubts about implementing the triangle in 2024

I've never understood why the triangle offense wouldn't be effective in today's NBA.

It depends on the players. Most players wouldn't buy in. The league has become very easy and obvious with regards to offense. It's become about that quick guard play and 3 point shooting.

If you run the Triangle, you're taking the ball out of that guards hands and now asking a team to play in sync together. It's very high IQ, very detail oriented. You would need a leader who was Lebron level in his prime to buy in and enforce the rest to buy in. Lebron/AD would be great in the Triangle, but the other 3 players need to be able to shoot 3 pointers and pass. In today's league you would need to space the post spot a bit different. If AD is that guy setting up in the post (or Lebron) it needs to be a lot higher, closer to the mid to high post. The sideline Triangle can not be run as deep. This would allow better spacing.

No one but Phil could run it though, because of the buy in factor. No one buys in to a regular coach selling this concept. You also need deeply competitive high IQ player as your star. Your star can't be Trae Young. I think Lebron would have thrived in it as would have AD.

Another team that I think would do well running the Triangle are the Suns. They have Durant, Beal, Booker, Grayson. Teams like that, if you had a coach like Phil, they'd probably buy in and be able to run it. This Laker team with AD/Lebron/DLO/Reaves/Rui could also easily run it, again IF they bought in. The key is the buy in, be different factor. The very special thing about Kobe, as much as he disliked the Triangle at first, Kobe was very good at knowing details and plays and getting teammates to follow. By Phil's second run, Kobe was better than anyone at running it.

I do not enjoy today's NBA as much as 15 years ago. Even 10 years ago was better. Today's league is less watchable for me because it's just the same ole same ole from every team. What made 10-15 years ago cool, you had the D'Antoni and other offenses in the league, you had the Lebron show in Miami, but you also had teams running stuff we saw with Kobe/Phil/Pau in LA, and Boston with KG/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Thibs. You had a pretty cool blend of different styles of play. Now pretty much everyone plays the exact same way. It's boring.


Just to add, the shot diet the triangle produces just wouldn’t be competitive in today’s game. That’s why coaches around the league have adopted the elements that work and discarded the rest. That’s why every other coach that has tried to implement it has crashed and burned. Like you said, it also requires buy-in from your players who aren’t going to want to run it and even if they did there’s so much player turnover now that you’d be practically starting over every season. If the triangle were a viable offense in today’s game you’d have teams running it.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:35 am    Post subject:

I'm not bragging or anything, or maybe I am a little , but I wrote the most elaborate analysis on the Triangle in the history of the internets. I think you could still run it and produce the shots that the NBA requires (threes, layups). You would just have to adjust it and cut down the time to set up the spacing.

What made the Triangle frustrating for many players is that it took a lot of time to make the initial reads and put the players in position. If that initial phase of the shot clock is not coordinated correctly by the players, the whole thing falls apart. But in retrospect, much of that wasn't needed and Phil was a bit too orthodox in that regard, especially when he was with the Lakers. When the Bulls ran it, the initial reads were simpler and they got into the offense much faster.

So a modern Triangle would emphasize a kind of semi fastbreak spacing, get the players into the position quickly, and then make the reads. Since the spacing is perfect, you can get into pick and rolls, drive and kicks, etc. You would produce good shots.

Another problem is that Tex Winter is dead, Phil is old, and therefore there wouldn't be anyone to teach it that is heavily invested in it.

But I do agree that the buy in is crucial, and the turnover in the league is high so it wouldn't be practical to implement it in any elaborate way since you'd have to constantly teach it to new people and the chemistry would be disrupted, since it's a read and react offense and not based on set plays.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 4:29 pm    Post subject:

I always thought it was crazy how often after a game a reporter would ask a question about how unstoppable the triangle offense was that day and the player would respond and say “actually we hardly ran it at all today”
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:43 am    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
I'm not bragging or anything, or maybe I am a little , but I wrote the most elaborate analysis on the Triangle in the history of the internets. I think you could still run it and produce the shots that the NBA requires (threes, layups). You would just have to adjust it and cut down the time to set up the spacing.

What made the Triangle frustrating for many players is that it took a lot of time to make the initial reads and put the players in position. If that initial phase of the shot clock is not coordinated correctly by the players, the whole thing falls apart. But in retrospect, much of that wasn't needed and Phil was a bit too orthodox in that regard, especially when he was with the Lakers. When the Bulls ran it, the initial reads were simpler and they got into the offense much faster.

So a modern Triangle would emphasize a kind of semi fastbreak spacing, get the players into the position quickly, and then make the reads. Since the spacing is perfect, you can get into pick and rolls, drive and kicks, etc. You would produce good shots.

Another problem is that Tex Winter is dead, Phil is old, and therefore there wouldn't be anyone to teach it that is heavily invested in it.

But I do agree that the buy in is crucial, and the turnover in the league is high so it wouldn't be practical to implement it in any elaborate way since you'd have to constantly teach it to new people and the chemistry would be disrupted, since it's a read and react offense and not based on set plays.

I remember those analysis you did. Were great.

Agreed in modern NBA if any Phil Jackson team would run Tri, it would be much more like the Chicago Bulls version, a much faster tempo. Also, what many don't realize is that even with Kobe/Pau/LO Lakers, there was a lot of spacing and faster tempo vs the Shaq era.

If you look at the very basic set up diagram of the Triangle. The 5 is close to the 3 point line, the 4 is at the elbow or vice versa (5 is in the post, 4 is at the elbow). 1/2/3 are all at the 3 point line. What we'd need to do in this era is ensure your 5 and 4 in this scenario could extend the spacing a bit, to go at the 3 point line. So your 5 would need to be a 3 point threat. And with the advancements of 3 point shooting, the way guys can really shoot that thing, the 1 would be fine if he pushed back a bit closer to the halfcourt line.

What I am saying is the basic initiation of the offense and spacing would need to be adjusted a bit to get further away from the basket. This would then utilize the advancements of perimeter skills in players these days.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:02 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:

<snip>

I do not enjoy today's NBA as much as 15 years ago. Even 10 years ago was better. Today's league is less watchable for me because it's just the same ole same ole from every team. What made 10-15 years ago cool, you had the D'Antoni and other offenses in the league, you had the Lebron show in Miami, but you also had teams running stuff we saw with Kobe/Phil/Pau in LA, and Boston with KG/Pierce/Allen/Rondo/Thibs. You had a pretty cool blend of different styles of play. Now pretty much everyone plays the exact same way. It's boring.


Very true!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:03 am    Post subject:

This is an apples and oranges question. The game is completely different now and as other posters have mentioned, far less enjoyable because of the gimmicky offenses and lack of defense. In hindsight, Phil would have won 7 rings with Kobe if they put a half competent roster around him from 04-07. Gasol came when Kobe was at the tail end of his prime. However, the game is no longer what it used to be, and the triangle offense is currently antiquated in favor of the three ball. The volatility of the 3pt shot and modern offenses makes the championship less predictable year after year, and teams are repeating less.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 7:16 am    Post subject:

In keeping with the work from home society of today, Phil can do better from his couch than meat head can do at the office. Its a sad day when guys like Mike D and Mike Brown are missed.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:56 pm    Post subject:

The modern equivalent to the Triangle is what the Warriors run.

They run the Triangle along with some of what D'Antoni ran, and some of what Popovich ran, and it all works together cohesively and shows it can evolve.

The Warriors offense is intentional and not accidental and they got the superstars to buy in, which is a big part of it. When you have superstars get intentional sets like that ran for them in the ways that Steph does, it just enhances the kind of shots he can get. He can get wide open shots off sets as well as get his teammates wide open shots off them as well as create his own shot if sets break down. Draymond also buying into being one of the main facilitators in that offense is a big deal additionally and being okay with not scoring much.


If Phil was able to get LeBron and AD to buy into that, the rest of the team follows suit. The triangle has tons of pick and roll and 'wide open three' sets which would fit in the modern NBA, as well as a lot of intentional offense that would have found AD and LeBron down at the low block. And there'd be a heck of a lot less standing around or LeBron holding the ball for 20 seconds and jacking up a three.

That and DLO is a tall point guard, High IQ, willing to do whatever is necessary in the offense or his role in it, as well as being a great passer, pick and roll threat, and elite three point shooter. Which in a system such as the Triangle, is perfect.
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